The three delegates in question each submitted a VALID delegate form with THEIR OWN SIGNATURES. There were duplicate forms with their father’s signature. Nobody is being accepted with their father’s signature, those forms were discarded. If they hadn’t also submitted forms with their own signature, they wouldn’t be delegates.

None of those three committed ANY fraud. THEY didn’t submit their forms with invalid signatures, their father did.

The father submitted his OWN form with his own signature. That form is not fraudulent, so he also qualified.

I’m not sure what punishment would be allowable or appropriate for his signing the other forms, especially given that the error was corrected, but the penalty wouldn’t include a denial of voting rights, not without a due process hearing and state action. Even if this rose to a legal issue (BVBL suggested that these forms do not carry legal penalties), the right to vote is not deniable for penalty except if convicted of a felony, something the credentials committee cannot do.

Anyway, since I address specifically the issue you mention back in post 6, I don’t know why you think we are avoiding it. The issue of signing other people’s form’s is a serious one, and the credentials committee took it seriously, is taking it seriously, and is putting a lot of procedures in place to ensure that the delegates who show up are the ones who submitted forms, and are qualified under the RPV plan to vote in this convention.

Again, I trust the credentials committee, consisting of 2 chairs picked by both candidates, and two members for each candidate, to do their job seriously and respectably.

The fraud isn’t about duplicate forms. Same name, Same address, same signature, these get eliminated, no problem.

The issue, which you keep avoiding” is when an individual fills out and then SIGNS delegate forms for his or her entire family. This is fraud. Clearly, it is against the rules. To make matters worse, the individual(s) in question ADMITTED to doing this.

What does Gill gain? He gains a few extra delegates, who may or may not have been eligible to vote, but should otherwise be disqualified, because they did not sign their own filing forms.

Now, the three people who then filled out and properly signed their forms committed no fraud. They never faked their signatures. They want to be delegates, the properly signed and executed forms. They certainly should not be punished because someone else signed forms with their names on them.

And the fourth person properly signed and executed his own form. So his form was not fraud, and had to be accepted.

If there is any question raised about any other signatures, the committee is requiring the delegate to sign a sworn statement. That should verify the signatures.

The committee took this very seriously. This was not a pro-forma decision. But in the end, this is not about Gill, or Lucas, who collected forms and turned them in. It’s about the delegates who filled out and signed the forms.

There are things that would be a real problem, like voters who don’t live in the district. The credentials committee’s job is to ensure that all delegates meet the criteria for participation on the day of the convention. The committee chairs were chosen by mutual decision of the candidates, and each candidate provided two other people.

Anybody who supports a candidate, but attacks the committee itself as being stooges or being unqualified to do their job, or letting things slide, is essentially questioning their own candidate’s ability to choose wisely the people who they trust, to pick good staff and representative employees.

I think that type of attack is unfounded, and is being used as a sour grapes argument by those who fear the outcome and want to question the results. I on the other hand trust this committee to debate, act, and decide in an ethical and unbiased manner.

I disagree with some of their decisions, but I don’t question their desire or attempt to do what is right. I think it speaks poorly of the supporters for a candidate to spend so much time tearing down every person associated with the process, when so many were chosen by their own candidate.

You must be joking…confused over such a simple thing?? These people do speak and read English, yes? They would have to if they are actually citizens…it’s part of the process. If they ARE NOT citizens, why were they recruited in the first place? This raises a whole new set of questions.

Fraud involves the intent to gain something by deceit. What exactly does this “fraud” gain Faisal Gill? Some people submitted their forms twice and got confused about who should sign. Mistake? Yes. Treachery on Faisal Gill’s part? Why bother? Gill could turn in 10,000 forms. If these delegates do not show up, he still loses.

The point of the forms and prefiling is to provide the credentials committee time verify that the people who show up at the convention have a right to be there. Nothing more, nothing less.

Charles,

When a campaign turns in approximately 30 duplicate delegate forms which have the same name, address, etc., everything is the same except the signatures, there is a PROBLEM and it is FRAUD.

Someone else signed for all these people on a delegate form!!! A question you may want to ask is who did this? Another question to ask is how many other delegate forms were filled out and signed by someone else?

Because the orginial people also turned in their forms, these forged signatures were caught. How many other forms were forged and the orginial people did not turn in their forms. We will never know and that is how this could defraud the convention.

If someone can explain how having two delegate forms for the same person can POSSIBLY defraud the convention, explain it to me. Only one person can show up, give their ID, sign their name, and vote. So even if the credentials committee was entirely clueless and couldn’t eliminate duplicates, there’d be no fraud.

And if someone can tell me they think Lucas is so weak that she’d be scared off by filing numbers, speak up now. There is NO advantage to filing duplicates, so it is likely someone simply put the forms in alphabetical order and didn’t compare one form to the next.

Frankly, you all miss the bigger issue. The delegate forms are NOT filed by “candidates”. The delegate forms are signed documents between the people who sign them, and the republican committee running the convention. Yes, candidates like to collect the forms so they can track them, and turn them in to prove “their” support.

But the delegate form does not belong to the candidate, and if anything the candidates should be required to turn in EVERY form signed. It’s NOT the candidate’s job to pick and choose delegate forms — I’d rather have that job done by the bi-partisan credentials committee.

Suppose a Lucas supporter got a delegate form, but as they were leaving the signee said “by the way, I’m voting for your opponent!!” Would they be allowed to throw out the form? Under what conditions do you want to allow candidates to discard “executed” forms?

Do we really want the candidates doing the signature verification and throwing out signed delegate forms? I don’t. It’s the CREDENTIALS committee’s job to decide if people who asked to be delegates to the convention are accepted or not, NOT the candidates or their staff.

If a candidate finds out that people who were going to support them didn’t get their forms right, I would expect the candidate to go back and get proper forms. But suppose the previous forms were mailed in? If the candidate asked to have them returned, I would say NO. Only the person signing a form can ask for it to be removed.

I guess you could make an exception for clear duplicates. But delegates are ALLOWED to file duplicate forms. The form does NOT say that you can only fill out one form (check it out). You might do more than one form just to make certain you get in. Or you might do one at the meeting, and then forget and do one when a candidate comes by, and then when the other candidate comes you are convinced they are better, and that candidate asks you and you file again.

There is no fraud in a duplicate. Note that we have duplicate signatures on voter petitions all the time. It’s not a fraud, they are simply eliminated. Candidates try to do so themselves, but there is nothing on the form that says only sign once, and I’m certain I’ve signed some more than once.

Of course, those with an agenda and a candidate to support will argue whatever helps their candidate. People will attack the committee made up of two chairs picked by BOTH candidates, and two people from each campaign.